tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post6650039948427139549..comments2024-02-29T16:43:55.241-05:00Comments on Lurking Rhythmically: The Light, the Dark and the GrayErin Palettehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09984632637166408245noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-5125824520775250982010-08-10T14:14:13.550-04:002010-08-10T14:14:13.550-04:00Rambling is always good and very welcome!
But the...Rambling is always good and very welcome!<br /><br />But the point I was trying to make, and what you carefully exemplified, is that it is very easy for each of these religions to become twisted based upon misinterpretations of their followers. All the Light truly wants is to promote life; everything other than that is dogma created by fallible beings who likely have an agenda.ErinPalettenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-56360881936225247982010-08-10T14:08:03.798-04:002010-08-10T14:08:03.798-04:00Very thought provoking. I would consider the Grey...Very thought provoking. I would consider the Grey to be more chaotic good (to heck with the laws/dogma, do what's right) and the Church of the Light spanning LN, LG, and NG depending upon who you are dealing with: the inquisitor that walks into your home to look around on the off chance you are up to something and because he can is LN, the priestess healing all who are injured no matter their beliefs as NG, and paladins doing their thing as the LG. <br /><br />Now the inquisitor walking in just to be nosy starts drifting towards the dark and would enter LE territory - he knows best and the laws support his ability to do what he's doing. Sort of the dark twin of the Gray Cabalists.<br /><br />Depending upon how you view the fey, they could occupy several different niches. Do they keep their word if given? Do they tell only the truth but not necessarily all the truth? Are they pranksters performing for their own amusement? (I've been listening to audiobooks of the Dresden Files which invoke the fey in many of the books.)<br /><br />I think I'm rambling now, so I'll stop here.Patrick Walshhttp://twitter.com/Shaddakimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-10086161851444204832009-07-08T22:35:24.779-04:002009-07-08T22:35:24.779-04:00Several days late to the party - but great post! V...Several days late to the party - but great post! Very nuanced interpretation. I like the idea that alignment is expressed in such social ways - this is the way I tend to think of it in game, vs the gods vs devils schtick (except when that is too convenient to pass up...)Ragnorakkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03812860633134547618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-7369738492408676662009-07-02T19:13:18.263-04:002009-07-02T19:13:18.263-04:00Heh. Seriously, gods forbid trying to please every...Heh. Seriously, gods forbid trying to please everyone, especially me. I just tend to babble a lot anyways. You've got a very solid model on the Order/Chaos dynamic here, one I'd at least pick through again later if I was going to go that route in a game. I've no problem seeing a fantasy world that actually works that way because, hey, fantasy. I love the Order/Chaos magic system and philosophical divides presented in the aforementioned Recluce books, so it's not like I don't think it can be done well.Nerrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08966552720554431156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-61804666395418215522009-07-02T17:13:55.716-04:002009-07-02T17:13:55.716-04:00Absolutely, now that you mention it. I've alw...Absolutely, now that you mention it. I've always considered gnomes to be fey, so it fits pretty well.<br /><br />Been way too long since I read that book...trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-10681878354073380752009-07-02T16:53:55.061-04:002009-07-02T16:53:55.061-04:00@Allura: Exactly. If you let it more than one pant...@Allura: Exactly. If you let it more than one pantheon, you're hard-pressed to explain why you can't let them ALL in. <br /><br />@Trollsmyth: So you're saying that the Fey are Discordians, then? (Read the quoted section <a href="http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-i-found-eris-and-what-i-did-to-her.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> if that needs explaining.)<br /><br />@Kenneth: I can't please everyone. *shrug*<br /><br />@Bunny: Hm, you bring up an interesting notion. If Light is Neutral Good, and Dark is Neutral Evil, then it could be argued that Gray is Lawful Neutral (throw out the dogma and use what works) and of course Fey is Chaotic Neutral. <br />Eeeeenteresting.Erin Palettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09984632637166408245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-40484888621225412222009-07-02T14:59:12.697-04:002009-07-02T14:59:12.697-04:00...but the Fey are obviously aligned with the Dark......but the Fey are obviously aligned with the Dark. Not the "necromantic/negative plae" Dark, but where else would you put creatures that rely on deception and half-truths as their primary means of interaction. Or so says the Church of Light and their oppressive inquisitors.<br /><br />Or are they?<br />I'd figure Feys are more Zen Buddhist mixed up with the Younger Wittgensteins theory of language (that we have a number of concepts that are non-sense. Truths that are beyond language and forms the frame upon which we understand language) and than followers of the Dark. Their actions do follow a logic, their own very non-human logic.<br />Any "Fey" belief system could be centered around some weird system of Fey Koans.<br />The reward would be understanding the Fey and their Tir-na-nog (or what ever the Fey lands are called), to think fey and thus become Fey. Immortal and with almost godlike abilities to shape the reality around you.<br /><br />The Priesthood of the Fey would be kind of weird. They have some understanding of the fey, and can to an extent shape reality and conjure up illusions. But not only are they quite self-absorbed with their ascent to Fey-hood, but thinking Fey-ish (or at least their understanding of what Fey is) leaves them very prone to acting in a way that might be constructed as "abusing others".<br /><br />They obviously do interact with others to make a living, but they tend to be shifty fellows.<br />A possible interpretations would be Fey priests traveling around as Gypsies or carnies. Entertaining, cheating but also providing valuable services in order to make a living while they search for victims of the fey. So that they can interview them and try to learn more of the Fey, find new Fey Koans and gain more powers etc.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16107912572769487068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-68236985121186254872009-07-01T21:56:02.336-04:002009-07-01T21:56:02.336-04:00I recently inherited a Forgotten Realms campaign a...I recently inherited a Forgotten Realms campaign as the DM. After looking over the 100+ deities (and that's just the human ones), I started working on a way to pare them down to around a dozen or so. <br /><br />I stole shamelessly from Raymond Feist's 'Riftwar Saga' and have an original god of chaos/evil/etc who's setting about destroying the entire world, with my little twist being, that he's taking out the gods first to make things easier for him to accomplish this =)<br /><br />I'm combining portfolios across the board and then adding in my own little twists.Allura-Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11973233610929480472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-9501683026496301872009-07-01T20:49:09.418-04:002009-07-01T20:49:09.418-04:00Sorry, yeah, not the best description. Let me try...Sorry, yeah, not the best description. Let me try again:<br /><br />First, they recognize that everyone perceives dichotomies around them: light/dark, male/female, etc. And the Fey enjoy these they same way they enjoy a fine work of art or a gripping play. They'll gladly lose themselves in them, but they never mistake them for reality. <br /><br />They perceive such dichotomies as illusions, masking a reality in which all things are united at a fundamental level. Light and Dark are handy concepts by which to understand your day-to-day living, but mask the truth in which both powers spring from the same source. The dichotomies have their uses, but those who can't see beyond them are considered little better than the intellectual equivalent of children.<br /><br />That make more sense?trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-90814049918943549912009-07-01T19:08:11.648-04:002009-07-01T19:08:11.648-04:00This feels to me like a classic Order/Chaos divisi...This feels to me like a classic Order/Chaos division more than one about good or evil, something vaguely recalling Moorcock or Zelazny, or Modesitt's Recluce setting. Order/Chaos isn't a bad dichotomy on its own, and a little more nuanced than Good/Evil, but it's still pretty simplistic for my tastes.<br /><br />I love pantheons and even multiple conflicting pantheons because they provide a lot of differing flavor and nuance within the broad tags of alignment. To point to some stock/Greyhawk gods, for example, Heironeous provides a much different take on Lawful Good than, say, Rao, or even Cuthbert. And Pholtus? Oh my, there's a reason the Pholtans and Cuthbertines loathe one another; they're too alike.<br /><br />I also prefer it because, well, it's a more realistic world that way. These pantheons developed in isolation from one another, just like they did in the real world, and <i>then</i> they met. Racial/ethnic/cultural politics aside, in the real world, when two cultures with differing religions one into one another, syncretism tends to be the last thing on either one's agenda, particularly if one is going conquering. It happens more in young faiths trying to gain a footing (Christianity's roots that rather resemble a large number of other cults of the time), and one culture rising in proximity to another and taking its place (Babylon abducting Sumer's gods), but you're going to have a hell of a time getting elves to absorb dwarven gods, or vice versa. They may talk about some of the same things (war, fertility, death), but with very different perspectives born of their cultures and environments. If nothing else, pantheons are a powerful tool to provide some distinctive flavor between differing cultures.<br /><br />Eberron recalls some of what you're on about, though. It still presents it with multiple gods, but there's a broad pantheon that's good, and one that's evil (or at least, not-good, in some cases). Each has its place in the natural order of the world, and people are more likely to follow a pantheon as a unit than an individual god (people whose lives delve into a particular god's area overmuch, like blacksmiths and the god of the forge, will focus on one, but not to the exclusion of others). There's also the Church of the Silver Flame, which basically is the same thing as your Church of the Light.<br /><br />Though for my homebrew setting, I kind of go half and half. Different cultures have different pantheons because, frankly, that's how it tends to work out. Especially when you're divided by oceans or large deserts or just plain simple distance. There's also a syncretic pantheon of growing popularity where each god embodies some broad principle, in a distant and neutral kind of way. Their faiths schism all over the place, so you've got good cults of the god of death (who's also the god of peace and freedom from suffering) and evil cults of the god of creation (who, by his nature, is the creator of disease and natural disasters, too), and everything in between. The only monolithically evil force isn't even evil, it's just the unthinking force of destruction.Nerrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08966552720554431156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-35714284748373176562009-07-01T18:48:17.159-04:002009-07-01T18:48:17.159-04:00tried to email ya, but it bounced back saying your...tried to email ya, but it bounced back saying your account was disabled?Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-15066451702616092222009-07-01T16:01:41.286-04:002009-07-01T16:01:41.286-04:00@Trollsmyth: First you say they deny dichotomies, ...@Trollsmyth: First you say they deny dichotomies, then you say they celebrate them? <br /><br />I am confoozled.Erin Palettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09984632637166408245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-14740881053899511182009-07-01T15:13:06.660-04:002009-07-01T15:13:06.660-04:00Well, if the Grey is a middle way that seeks balan...Well, if the Grey is a middle way that seeks balance between the two, adopting one and then the other as the situation calls for it (symbolized by a stitched seam or a <a href="http://www.animatedknots.com/sheetbend/index.php" rel="nofollow">sheet bend knot</a>), then the Fey perspective would be a universal view that denies the dichotomy, and instead perceives both Light and Dark as halves of one greater whole. The Fey perspective would celebrate dichotomies while embracing the notion that all are false and that everything is part of a single, great universal One. <br /><br />Part of the fun of transforming people into beasts is watching the poor humans freak out. The fey understand that the difference between a pig and a person is merely a matter of perspective. The terror caused by blinkered human perspective is always good for a laugh.<br /><br />This would make the Fey both more benevolent and more vicious than those who live within the worldview of Dark vs. Light. On the one hand, the Fey have a perspective that allows for universal empathy. They feel for the plight of rabbit in the jaws of the wolf. On the other hand, that universal empathy also allows them to feel the wolf's thrill at the hunt (as well as the grumble of hunger in her belly and the desire to feed her pups). To those inside the Dark vs. Light dichotomy, the fey would seem amoral. The fey would respond that the morality of the Light is based on a lie that would destroy all worlds if taken to its logical extreme.trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-61416442124255356262009-07-01T14:29:17.369-04:002009-07-01T14:29:17.369-04:00I often create characters that Eschew the establis...I often create characters that Eschew the established pantheons in D&D and follow their own religions, since I rarely play a Divine Caster, it's just for flavor's sake.<br />Your homemade ideals resonate really well with my own independently generated concepts, and are, in fact, fleshed out WAY more than my own. I may have to start using these...<br />Kudos! These rule.Danicusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-35063105412319027122009-07-01T14:22:39.148-04:002009-07-01T14:22:39.148-04:00No, wait... not yugoloths or demodands, but NIGHT ...No, wait... not yugoloths or demodands, but <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightHag.htm" rel="nofollow">NIGHT HAGS.</a> Especially if you give them necromantic magic. Now you can have <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hag.htm" rel="nofollow">hag coveys</a> as main villains/recurring characters!Erin Palettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09984632637166408245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-63748330994187220952009-07-01T14:10:19.364-04:002009-07-01T14:10:19.364-04:00Ooh, lovely comments! :D
@Jeff: There's no re...Ooh, lovely comments! :D<br /><br />@Jeff: There's no reason why angels and demons couldn't exist in this campaign setting -- they'd simply be in service to higher (lower?) ideals rather than a deity -- although I would use the lesser-known Yugoloths or Demodands instead of demons, just to play up the divide. <br /><br />@Trollsmyth: I'd not heard of Blue Rose before. I'll need to give it a look. <br /><br />Also, I had originally thought of naming this "The Light, the Dark, the Gray and the Fey" but I really couldn't think of a fey belief system that didn't boil down to "Let's get drunk/high and fuck/abuse the mortals." If you can develop one that makes sense alongside my Three, I'd love to see how it turns out. <br /><br />@Oddysey: Thanks! And welcome to my blog. :)Erin Palettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09984632637166408245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-89517969868181226422009-07-01T12:53:17.639-04:002009-07-01T12:53:17.639-04:00I particularly like the idea of giving good and ev...I particularly like the idea of giving good and evil campaign-specific flavor. Privacy vs. honesty is an issue pretty much everyone understands, and it makes sense as a lens to lay over good vs. evil, but it's also very distinctive. These are religions that players will remember.Nataliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528192783751011497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-69981277320209743852009-07-01T12:08:31.263-04:002009-07-01T12:08:31.263-04:00I like!
At first, I was worried you were going th...I like!<br /><br />At first, I was worried you were going the way of the <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.CrystalDragonJesus" rel="nofollow">Crystal Dragon Jesus</a>, but of course you weren't. I love the way you've sprinkled some evil in the Light and some good in the Dark, and I'd be tempted to take that idea even further, blurring the lines even further and having known representatives of both in every hamlet and city. People might mistrust the Dark and it's representatives, but they worship it none-the-less, recognizing it as a legitimate and powerful force in their lives due respect and demanding propitiation. <br /><br />For some reason, it's tweaking thoughts of Blue Rose, but I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the duality thing. <br /><br />The other nice thing about this idea is that it makes it very easy to decide who gets which spells. The spells remain flavorful without having to adopt or recreate 2nd edition's very baroque but cool spheres. <br /><br />The lack of actual anthropomorphized deities is also interesting. People don't actually worship beings, but forces. It'd be fun to spin these out into organizations and personalities. I was already thinking of some respected (and probably martyred) philosopher-saint of the Grey before I'd even finished reading that section.<br /><br />I've been kicking around the idea of a very High Fantasy game with lots of fey in it based heavily on <a href="http://hamsterhoard.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Taichara's inventions</a> and the art of <a href="http://imagecache5.art.com/p/LRG/10/1059/U3VL000Z/brian-froud-brian-froud--gwenhwyfar.jpg" rel="nofollow">Brian Froud</a>. If that game ever gets off the ground, I may steal this for religion in the human lands. <br /><br />(PS - Got the link to you up today. Yeesh, yeah, I know, I'm slow. ;p )trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6649591714373684167.post-42153379180187410802009-07-01T12:05:01.295-04:002009-07-01T12:05:01.295-04:00I like this scheme. You start with the basic Good...I like this scheme. You start with the basic Good/Evil division that often overpowers a setting and introduce some very nice human ambiguity. Suspiciously lacking in slobbering frog demons or scary Book of Revelations angels as outlined, but I'd play it. Though it must be said that I'm a sucker that makes Paladins look like big pushy jerks even though they might be right.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.com